Part of a letter I don't want to loose on perseverance of the saints

In answer to a question about Hebrews 6 . What are verses that deal with not loosing your salvation:

As far as verses about not loosing your salvation, scripture has to agree with scripture. I have basically seen the Hebrew passages [such as Hebrews 6--there are more than one) as examples of Matt 13:1-9 which is the parable of the sower. Jesus talks about the seeds in verse 5 -"Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold.....etc . I think as in Hebrews 6 it is possible to have a taste of the Holy Spirit working, and to be enlightened and to taste the goodness of the word etc, and not to be saved. You can be sitting under the preaching of the word and be enlightened by the Spirit and taste him, but not be saved. True Christians who have experienced salvation by the indwelling Spirit of God will be those in verse 8 of the parable.

Here are some verses about not loosing salvation:

John 316--that whoever believes in him should not perish but HAVE ETERNAL Life.

John 5:24--Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS ETERNAL LIFE. He does not come into judgment , BUT HAS PASSED from death to life.

John 6:47--Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

John 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood HAS eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

**John 10:27 and following is powerful: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I GIVE them ETERNAL LIFE, and NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

I believe all of this has to do with the perseverance of the saints. True believers will persevere in their belief. Heb 3 :14 "for we SHARE in Christ, IF INDEED we hold our original confidence firm to the end." Those that fall away really did not SHARE IN CHrist.

Philippianns 1:6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

Matt 18:14: So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."

Ephesians 1: 3 and following 3"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even AS HE CHOSE US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for ADOPTION through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, WITH WHICH HE HAS BLESSED us IN THE BELOVED. 7 IN him we HAVE REDEMPTION through HIS BLOOD, THE FORGIVENESS OF OUR TRESPASSES, according to the riches of his grace, 8 WHICH HE LAVISHED upon us, in all wisdom and insight, 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ ......

{notice adoption couldn't be reversed in Roman times--also notice the tense of the verbs)

11 In him we HAVE OBTAINED an INHERITANCE, having BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL......

verse 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, WERE SEALED with the promised HOLY Spirit, 14 who is the GUARANTEE of our INHERITANCE until we acquire posession of it, to the praise of his glory."

[We have been chosen before the foundation of the world and SEALED and as John said earlier--no one can snatch us out of his hands]

Ephesians 2 :1 said we were once "DEAD in the trepasses and sins in which you once walked......"

BUT verse 4 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the GREAT LOVE with which HE LOVED US, 5 EVEN WHEN we were DEAD in our trespasses, MADE US ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST--by grace YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED--6 and RAISED us up with him and SEATED us with hiim IN THE HEAVENLY places IN Christ JESUS, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the IMMEASURABLE RICHES OF THIS GRACE IN KINDNESS toward us in CHRIST JESUS. 8 FOR BY GRACE you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God 9 NOT A RESULT of WORks so that no one may boast. 10 For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED in Christ Jesus for good works, which GOD PREPARED bEFOREHAND, that we should walk in them."

[note--we were once dead in our sins but now are alive. by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED--past tense--done deal. EVen our raising and seating in the heavenly places is past tense--done deal. pretty wonderful stuff here in Ephesians! yippppppeeee!---so a person who is in Christ who has passed from death to life will persevere in belief because of God's power, grace, towards us}

II Thes 3:3 'But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one."

Romans 8:35-39--nothing shall separate us from the love of God--not death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, .......etc.

As one guy put it--"The moment one believes, eternal life becomes a reality, a present possession, and not merely a conditional gift of the future. " John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever." As this commentator put it" He does not say that we have to eat many times, but that if we eat at all, we shall live for ever." Also "Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life"--John 4:14.

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God GAVE US ETERNAL LIFE, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever HAS the SON HAS LIFE; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. "

Heb 10:14 "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."

II Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom...."

Romans 8: 29-30 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whhom he justified he also glorified."

As one guy has put it : "Christ makes intercession for His people (Rom.8:34; Heb 7:25), and we are told that the Father hears Him always (John 11:42). Hence the Arminian, holding that Christians may fall away must deny either the passages which declare that Christ does make intercession for His people, or he must deny those which declare that His prayers are always heard. Let us consider here how well protected we are: Christ is at the right hand of God pleading for us, and in addition to that , the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered, Romans 8:26."

Here are some more references: Jer. 32:40, Ezek 11:19-20. I peter 1:5, II Cor 9:8, Romans 14:4, II Tim 2:19, Luke 10:20, Phil 4:3, Rev 3:5, 13:8 17:8, 20:12-15; 21:27 (These last passages refer to the lamb's book of life--one guy says, "basically the names of the righteous are found there;but the names of those who perish have never been written there from the foundation of the world {read those passages]. God does not make the mistake of writing in the book of life a name which He will later have to blot out. Hence none of the Lord's own ever perish. Jesus told His disciples to find their chief joy in the fact that their names were written in heaven, Luke 1020; yet there would have been small grounds for joy in this respect if their names written in heaven one day could have been blotted out the next."

There is a good reference to the perseverence of the saints on page 1627 in the Reformation study Bible (esv). I like this paragraph, "In declaring the eternal security of God's people it is perhaps clearer to speak of their preservation than, as is usually done, of their perseverance. Perseverance means continued adherence to a belief despite discouragement and opposition. The reason that believers persevere in faith and obedience, however, is not the strength of their own commitment, but that Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit preserves them. "

It gives a whole bunch of references in this place on page 1627. It does not mean that all who ever professed to be Christians will be saved....nor those who try to live a Christian life in their own abilities...some will say Lord, Lord Matt 7:21-23......but it is those who have truly believed and been regenerated by God. These true believers, may backslide...but the Holy Spirit will not leave them alone--he will convict, and compel them to repent and be restored.

A favorite verse this week

Cindy at http://ioweitalltohim.blogspot.com/ is doing a linky with our favorite verse this Friday.(I am also participating in WOW-see sidebar) I think I will change this up a bit and share the verses which God is using this week in my life. It actually is 2 verses:

Is 58:10-11

10. if you pour yourself out for the
hungry
and satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
then shall your light rise in the
darkness
and your gloom be as the noonday.
11 And the Lord will guide you
continually
and satisfy your desire in scorched
places
and make your bones strong;
and you shall be like a watered garden,
like a spring of water,
whose waters do not fail

I just finished reading Crazy Love by Francis Chan. I want to search my life. I want to think about what it means to do what this verse 10 says--pouring yourself out for the hungry....the afflicted. It is a challenge. As I think about how most people in the world live (in much poverty) and as I think about how we are to love others the way Christ loves us, I am challenged to apply this verse 10. Already He has been providing extra money to give. But this verse goes way beyond this. I need to pray, seek, and do.

MY PRAYER for MYSELF: "O Lord, mercifully receive the prayers of your people who call upon you, and grant that they may know and understand what things they ought to do, and also may have grace and power faithfully to accomplish them; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen."

The coolest dance and song

See side bar -the Hungarian Ressurrection Day song.
My Son sent me this; it is fantastic--the dancing, and the words together! This is what it says about it:

On April 4, 2010, over 1,300 young people, all of them members of Faith Church celebrated Resurrection Sunday in Budapest, Hungary.

Music: Ferenc Balogh Jr.
Lyrics: Shelly Matos, based on the Hungarian text by Tamas Pajor (Tompage)
Producer: Ákos Nemes
Art Producer: Tamás Pajor (Tompage)
-----------
Dear Friends,

Thank you for your interest and for all your kind words! We are glad to inform you that we will start a new webpage soon called www.uptofaith.com where you will find other materials in connection with the dance video (e.g. a Trainer Video and The Making of the Dance). We also make arrangements with similarly high quality intellectual products: musics, flash mobs, actions, etc. These products will be also available on our webpage. Please visit us after one or one and a half month.
Till then please send our link to your friends!
We are also waiting for your comments, then we can send you advice notes about our new actions!

Best wishes,
The Resurrection Sunday Dance Team

the long Goodnight by matthew smith

The Long Goodnight by Matthew Smith - Joshua Harris



I love the song and the words--a good reminder when our loved ones in Christ die. Click the l above hear the music! Josh put this on his blog because his mom was dying. She died on the 4th. She was a vibrant Christian--

I journey forth rejoicing
From this dark vale of tears,
To heavenly joy and freedom,
From earthly bonds and fears;
Where Christ our Lord shall gather
All His redeemed again,
His kingdom to inherit.
Goodnight, goodnight till then!

Why thus so sadly weeping,
Beloved ones of my heart?
The Lord is good and gracious,
Though now He bids us part.
Oft have we met in gladness.
And we shall meet again,
All sorrow left behind us.
Goodnight, goodnight till then!

I go to see His glory,
Whom we have loved below:
I go, the blessed angels,
The holy saints to know.
Our lovely ones departed,
I go to find again,
And wait for you to join us.
Goodnight, goodnight till then

I hear the Saviour calling,
The joyful hour has come:
The angel guards are ready
To guide me to our home,
Where Christ our Lord shall gather
All His redeemed again,
His kingdom to inherit.
Goodnight, goodnight till then!

Relationships in Marriage = love barometer

I like this quote from Paul Tripp in his book--"What did you Expect?? Redeeming the Realities of Marriage" ----

Based on 1 John 4 and especially verse 20("If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen"), Tripp states:

"Your love for your husband or wife is a very accurate barometer of your true love for God."

Now this is something to think about! For other intersesting quotes this week go here to the Monday post about a "Week in Words: http://barbarah.wordpress.com/

Cruciform love

I have been reading Paul Tripp's book called--What Did You Expect??Redeeming the Realities of Marriage.

In this book he gives a definition of what he feels cruciform love is: "Love is willing self-sacrifice for the good of another that does not require reciprocation or that the person being loved is deserving."

I like this definition and it is good to think on. He says we get our" best definition of love from the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ's sacrifice of love is the ultimate definition of what love is and what love does. In this passage John is calling us to cruciform love, that is love that shapes itself to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ (cruci = 'cross' and form = "in the shape of' ). "

He was applying some of I John 4. I felt this was good to think about and reflect on.

I think I will link this to Barbara's http://barbarah.wordpress.com/ The week in words

Walking as Jesus Walked

I have been thinking about this. In my devotions today I John 2:6 , "whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked" .

I have been reading a book by Andrew Murry called, "With Christ in the School of Prayer." One of the things he says is this:

"And of all the traits of a life like Christ there is none higher and more glorious than conformity to Him in the work that now engages Him without ceasing in the Father's presence--His all-prevailing intercession. the more we abide in Him, and grow unto His likeness, will His priestly life work in us mightily, and our life become what His is, a life that ever pleads and prevails for men."

Hebrews 7:25 says, "Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."

I am so thankful for His continuous intercession.....I need to do this too.

Thanks again

God, I am so thankful for your intimate care. I think you for the God Wink you gave us this week. You gave us this verse , "Be still, and know that I am God", along with the Netherlands type picture. You gave us this just when my husband's company had been purchased by a group from the Netherlands. Thank you for reminding us that we can trust in what you have in store for us. Thank you for the way you then turned this around for some rich blessings. What a gracious God you have been......giving us beyond what we could hope or think. You are full of surprises. You give us beyond what we deserve. You shower us with blessings and with the glory of your intimacy. You delight to show yourself powerful. I give you thanks for your mercy, your grace, your self-revealing love, your joyful giving nature, your Fatherhood. Praise you from whom all blessings flow.

Images and symbols in worship

I found this discussion on Images, signs and symbols here: http://www.franciscan-anglican.com/Images.htm I wanted to post it here so I could think about what is said. I have been changing my views a bit on this subject. I don't agree with everything in this article--but it gives me something to think on and search the scriptures in this area. The tabernacle was full of symbolism because it was a shadow that points to Christ and to things in the heavenly places. Can we still have things that point to our great redeemer---I now think so. Here is the article


"The use of Images, Signs, and Symbols in Anglican Worship


The concept of using images in worship finds its origins in the Old Testament. The Temple contained numerous visual images, including the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant. The Temple Solomon built for the Lord contained many carvings of trees, gourds, flowers, and angels (1 Kings 6). It is clear that God did not forbid images used in the Sanctuary to glorify God.

What about symbols? In reading the Bible we discover that God uses tangible signs and symbols throughout the Scriptures as a way of communicating to God’s people. Often God’s people are instructed to make use of such signs and symbols to help them understand or remember what God is teaching them. :


· God’s use of the rainbow as the sign of God’s covenant to humankind never again to destroy the earth by a flood (Gen.9:13)
· the use unleavened bread by the Israelites as a symbol of their hurried flight out of Egypt
· the use of the blood of the lambs on their doorposts during the Passover as a symbol of their faith
· the use of animals upon the altar for ritual sacrifices to symbolize their sin and atonement
· the image of the bronze serpent Moses used as a symbol of God’s healing (Num. 21:9)
· the use of oil to anoint Israel’s Kings as symbolic of God’s setting them apart
· the placement of the twelve stones in the River Jordan to remind the Israelites of the crossing God had provided for them “as a sign” and “memorial” (Joshua 4:3-7)
· the building of stone altars by the Old Testament patriarchs including Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Gideon, and David as a symbols and acts of worship to God
· and the numerous symbolic acts carried out by the OT prophets (such as Jeremiah burying a loin cloth to demonstrate Israel’s ruin in Jer.13:4ff).

The examples are nearly limitless. In the New Testament God uses powerful symbols such as:


· the star of Bethlehem to signify the birth of Christ
· the dove to signify the Holy Spirit’s presence at Jesus’ baptism (John 1:32)
· water to signify one’s commitment to Christ at baptism
· bread and wine to signify Jesus’ body and blood.
· And the earliest church usage of the cross and empty tomb as signs and symbols of our faith
· the enduring marks in Jesus’ hands as symbolic of his sacrifice
· the symbol of a lamb to represent Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God

In addition, the Scriptures themselves paint vivid images for us of God in Divine glory. See Isaiah 6 where God is seated on the throne with God’s robes overflowing the Temple, or Daniel 7:9ff where Daniel has a vision the Ancient One with clothes white as snow and hair like pure wool on his throne of fiery flames, or in Revelation with its numerous images and symbols of God, Jesus Christ, and his Kingdom (too many to recount here).

In addition, signs and symbols are used by all of us today to communicate important truths of significance such as wedding rings, birthday cakes, birth stones, red roses, monograms, etc. It is natural way of communicating significant meaning.

The Greatest Sign: The Incarnation

Another important point which must be mentioned is the significance of God taking human form in the person of Jesus Christ. This has powerful ramifications for our worship and the use of images. Now that God has been revealed in a tangible, physical, material way through Jesus Christ (the Word became flesh and dwelt among us), we can now image or imagine God in the form of Jesus Christ. Now that God has taken physical human form, God has given us an image of God in Jesus Christ: the God-Man. It is now possible to use symbolic pictures and images of Christ in his humanity to aid us in our devotion to God and cause us to continually recall and remember the work God has done in Jesus Christ. This is the main reason why early Christians began painting pictures of Jesus, demonstrating the different offices and attributes of Christ, in their places of worship. Soon these simple paintings became beautiful icons whose purpose was educational and devotional. Icons of Jesus and Biblical figures teach us about God and the Bible and cause us to lift our hearts in gratitude to our Creator. There is tremendous historical precedent for their use in worship and in individual devotion. The Seventh Ecumenical Council of the Church upheld the tradition of the use of images in the worship as consistent with the orthodox Christian faith in 787.

What is forbidden to us however, is to make images and symbols which become objects of worship in themselves. We are never to offer worship to anything created; worship is meant for God alone. Images and symbols are meant to aid us in our worship and understanding of God and to bring glory to God. They are merely guideposts which always point us back to the Creator. Symbols and images are good in and of themselves, especially when used to bring glory to God, but it is humans which corrupt them. One common solution to this human error is to disallow all images and symbols. This is the situation in some churches following the Reformation. But this is again a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The Bible is rich and full of many symbols and imagery; it is a gift of God to aid us. If God deigned to take on human flesh in all its particularity, we no longer need to fear particular symbols. Rather, we ought to make proper use of the gifts God has given us and educate ourselves and others as to their appropriate uses.

The Gnostic philosophers of Greece believed that only the spiritual was good, and all matter (or material things) were evil. We have inherited this dangerous Gnostic tendency in our western society that causes us to be overly suspicious of the material. In our Gnostic tendencies, we feel that the physical and material are more prone to corruption. We have too often thrown out the tangible, material forms of worship, as modeled in Scripture, in place of an immaterial form of worship. But God desires that we worship God both spiritually and physically as demonstrated in the Scriptural models of worship."

I am not sure about this take on the pictures, statues of Jesus. But I need to think about it.

Worship

It is weekend of worship at http://inhimoneheart.blogspot.com/ Where we can link up with a prayer or poem --ect of worhship to God. So I thought I would participate in this first one ;-) It seems a little awkward to put a prayer of our own up on a post----but perhaps it is good for me to do at times.

Father, I want to lift my hands in thanks to you today for the blessing of blogging friends. Their creative spirit is such a reflection of all that you are as Creator. I love the way that you have filled the world with such a huge amount of variety. It always astounds me as I look around me at all the colors , shapes, sizes in flowers, birds, stars, trees, leaves ; I could go on and on. I love the way that women reflect this in the ways they decorate their homes, their blogs, their clothes, their hair, etc! I love the fact that you have stamped them with the image of God---that we were made in your image. What a wonderous Being you are. Thank you for making our lives so rich and for the blessing of knowing such a God. Thank you that we are constantly learning new things about you and your creation. Thank you for creating us as social beings who interact with you and each other. Thank you for these rich blessings!